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Old 09-11-2018, 12:20 AM
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Muninn Muninn is offline
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Default Thinking About Finger Joints

Now everyone knows that the WM fingers are a real pain in the backside. Generally they fail at the palm plate and need replacing.

Those who met Lynne at the Doll Meet will know that I decided to do surgery on one of her hands. I replaced the wires with a thin (3.5mm) but flexible garden twist wire. This seemed to work ok - the fingers were actually a bit too floppy to hold stuff, and the wire started to poke through the plastic sheathing and through the finger ends. Worst of all, they suffered the same fate as the standard wires - they all failed at the palm.

Thankfully I hadn't entirely closed her surgery wound up, so decided to try a different idea. I had some 3mm fence wire (you know, the stuff you attach chicken wire to), and have glued these into the palm plate. I also glued on some of the original string stuff to the ends to reduce the poking problem. However the wire is VERY stiff, so I'm looking at mods.

I came into the idea of finding some universal joints as an experimental modification. You can get UJs with a 3mm bore from places like model boat shops (for the drive shafts). Problem is, they're quite thick, the smallest diameter body I've seen is 7mm (see this eBay find or this for an example) - so they might be too thick for the majority of the lower finger joints. But - I wonder if they would work up against the palm plate? Basically have a very short piece of wire glued into the palm, enough to connect the UJ to, and then the finger wire connected into the other side of the UJ. It would remove the issue of the wires snapping at the palm, but I don't know how loose the joint would be.

I'm sure I've seen better joints out there that would do the trick i.e. would only bend in one direction, a bit stiffer motion etc., but I can't think of what they're called (I'm an engineer, but not in the metalwork field). So if anyone has any ideas or thoughts on what would work, then please chime in
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Old 09-11-2018, 07:36 AM
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How about steel-fixers tie wire doubled up and somehow blunted off?
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Old 09-11-2018, 10:04 AM
Saxen Saxen is offline
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I've bought larger u-joints from places like Spring fix linkages and Bearing boys, maybe they are worth asking for smaller fittings?

three other options that might work instead of universal joints.

Clevis joints, you could even make them yourself with simple tools or a 3d printer. U-joints would be good for the palm to finger connections, but a clevis would move more naturally in the fingers

Springs to connect the wire to the plate. I linked to lengths of springs in a similar hand thread the other week

stainless (or galvanised plain steel) wire rope. can be got in infinite diameters and much more resistant to work hardening than simple twisted wire
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Old 09-11-2018, 01:11 PM
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I made a post on this subject as I need do repairs . I heard telephone wire be ok .
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Old 09-11-2018, 11:26 PM
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Default Fixing Gingers Fingers

Hi Muninn,

I saw your post first thing this morning and being waiting to get home from work just to be involved. It is something that I try to get my head around daily, and I like you had various ideas and attempts, so thank you for this post.

The next bit is from what I know from my repairs, which I did for the last time in late summer, feel free to challenge anything I say.

Firstly can I say I am talking about WM girls that have a flat plate in the palm (palm plate) not a set of wires running through what looks like flexible bedside table light which is on the older WM girls.

Second I have a few WM girls all with palm plates and only one as seriously major issues and she is Ginger. The newer shrugging shoulder, new skeleton girls finger wires seem slightly more robust, but time will tell. Gingers fell apart within days/weeks, all the rest of my girls are okay.

How WM Plate/finger wires are arranged, three wires are attached to the top exit of the plate all twister wires, and all held in with hard resin type material nightmare to clean out. On each side we have one wire from each side of the plate, one to the thumb and one to the little finger.

Main problem is what looks like thin copper wire bent forwards and backwards against a fixed point. In other words go and buy a length 1.0mm electric cable strip it back to bare wire, double it up twist it around, hold it tightly in a pair of pliers and bend it back and forward and how many times can you do it before it breaks, I will give you the answer not bloody many, so I am not sure how it ever is going to work.

I did my repair with 2.5mm twisted copper wire. I made one length twisted together with the mid point loop at the finger tip, hoping for less pokes, with the cut ends to be fixed back into the plate. This worked but not the best of ideas I had. I also used milliput superfine white as my fixing material to replace resin material removed from inside the palm plate.

Bad points
Wire so thick with loop it rips fingers apart pushing through finger, and remember this when thinking about joints and pushing up through the fingers.
Hard to fix back in plate because wire is as thick as the plate and not much room for glue/ resin .
Still finger pokes but bigger.
I am sure it will break again over time.

Good points
Hands that hold objects
Looks better than floppy fingers.
Should hold up longer.

Other points
The wires break at the point they bend at the palm plate, because they are folded (bent) against a fixed point, that fixed point is resin/glue, now this bit may have been said above by saxon or not I am not quite sure, but you need to make the wire bend without the fold against the fixed point but still hold the wire in place, so I was thinking about a spring like in a pen but thicker that is mounted in the plate with resin or glue and extends out with the wires but allows a restricted bend but not allowing the fold.


Randomly I keep thinking about how to stop the finger pokes, my loop idea didn't really work. but in my mind, I can't help thinking of the possibility of fixing the offending end to the back of the fingernail.

I will leave it at that for now, and wait for other inspiration.


Tommo
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Last edited by Tommo10; 10-11-2018 at 01:57 AM.
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Old 11-11-2018, 09:37 PM
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Hmm, some good replies and ideas, thank you. I won't quote everyone individually, as my thought pattern is jumping around between all the above points!

I reckon the fencing wire I'm using is about as thick and stiff as steel fixer's wire - it's possibly too stiff for fingers without having some kind of joints - it's really difficult to bend the fingers and I worry about damaging the TPE doing it. Keeping my options open on the finger wire choice. Telephone wire could work - I've got a wide range of different wires to play with actually! I've not yet closed the wound up, and I'm using the Loctite "Perfect Pen" superglue that I squeeze into the palm plate - it's fairly easy to drill the old stuff out and reglue.

I've reduced the finger pokes somewhat by making the wires a little shorter, and also recycling that white thread that is wrapped around the original wires - I glued a short length of it around the tip to provide a bit of cushioning without making them too thick.

Clevis joints look like a good thought, It'd be a case of finding ones that would fit well enough as most are too big really. More hunting required perhaps... Springs however, that might just work, it should be possible to find "off the shelf" springs for the size of wires we use. Some types may also be sturdy enough to allow for a useful grip when posing.

As mentioned, the BIG problem with the wires isn't necessarily the wires themselves. Really, the original Jinsan wires are acceptable - ok, so the realism isn't great when it comes to posing the hands properly, but they'll do in the absence of finger joints. The problem that we need to get over is the finger-palm interface, as said this is a major area of failure due to bending in the same place. So the priority may be to remove this point of weakness by introducing the hinges or springs there. It'll also be an easier job as there's more space to play with compared to inside the fingers themselves. Ok, the little finger will be a sod, as will the thumb, but even just fixing the three bigger fingers will be a vast improvement.

Plenty of food for thought. I'll keep an eye out for solutions as I'm not in a major rush given I have other things on my jobs list
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Old 12-11-2018, 02:10 AM
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Tommo mentioned milliput. Which I agree is superb product .
I use standard and it will hold wires in place . It should .
I been using milliput for sculpting for years . Filling gaps to.
So give that a try . Super glue good but it drys and cracks .
Might be ok in plate . One can only try
I still gotta do a job on one my girls hands .
I just been waiting I guess .
On a thread I made someone said use telephone wire and plus it got plastic casing on so should be ok against tpe .
I have a garden wire to which is flexible . Tryed snapping it etc
And it didn't break .
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Old 12-11-2018, 10:40 AM
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Hi,would this work? https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/conduit/0113200/
I am sure I saw some 3mm diameter somewhere..
Matt
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Old 12-11-2018, 11:54 PM
waspie waspie is offline
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Firstly, great to see people who are good at this sort of repairs, but i am not one of them. This basically is poor manufacturing and is shameful, so NO ONE should be buying a tpe doll until they fix these pitiful shite excuses for hands/fingers and having the balls to charge us over 1000 for flimsy and fragile messes. I don't know how better/indifferent the silicone dolls are. I have had 3 tpe dolls, and they are all badly designed and made fingers, from different manufacturers, not just one.Skeletons are fine, but they do also WILL come loose if you pose them.
I spoke to one doll enthusiast, and there is no sure fire good method of repairs (and let's face it, it should be the manufacturer's trying to improve their fuck ups, not us). Anyway, a VERY good solution is unfortunately too expensive for most, and that is by using rolled carbon fibre, but one hand is likely to cost half the price of a doll unless you cna by pre-fabricated carbon fibre (good luck with that) !
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Old 13-11-2018, 12:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waspie View Post
Firstly, great to see people who are good at this sort of repairs, but i am not one of them. This basically is poor manufacturing and is shameful, so NO ONE should be buying a tpe doll until they fix these pitiful shite excuses for hands/fingers and having the balls to charge us over 1000 for flimsy and fragile messes. I don't know how better/indifferent the silicone dolls are. I have had 3 tpe dolls, and they are all badly designed and made fingers, from different manufacturers, not just one.Skeletons are fine, but they do also WILL come loose if you pose them.
I spoke to one doll enthusiast, and there is no sure fire good method of repairs (and let's face it, it should be the manufacturer's trying to improve their fuck ups, not us). Anyway, a VERY good solution is unfortunately too expensive for most, and that is by using rolled carbon fibre, but one hand is likely to cost half the price of a doll unless you cna by pre-fabricated carbon fibre (good luck with that) !
Agreed . I made posts on this subject . Yep to lazy and greedy to do fingers .
It's ridiculous the wire inside . As you said , spend loads on sumthing that's not 100% perfect product .
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